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[00:00:02]

GOOD EVENING. IT'S 6:05 P.M..

[1. Call to Order]

I'D LIKE TO CALL THE THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23RD, 2023 ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT MEETING TO ORDER.

HAS ANYONE SIGNED UP TO SPEAK? NO, SIR. NO ONE HAS SIGNED UP TO SPEAK DURING CITIZENS, PERIOD.

SO WE'LL MOVE FORWARD TO THE NEXT ITEM.

[3. Consent Agenda]

THE NEXT ITEM IS THE CONSENT AGENDA.

SECTION THREE IS A CONSENT AGENDA.

ITEM THREE A, CONSIDER APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES FROM THE JULY 2ND, 2019 AND DECEMBER SIX, 2022 ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT MEETINGS.

ALL ITEMS LISTED UNDER CONSENT AGENDA ARE CONSIDERED ROUTINE ITEMS AND WILL BE VOTED AS ONE MOTION TO HAVE A MOTION TO APPROVE MOTION.

SECOND HAVE A MOTION BY MS. SPEARS HAVE A SECOND BY MS. BROWN. ALL IN FAVOR.

ANYONE OPPOSED? MOTION CARRIES.

OH. THANK YOU.

OKAY. ITEM

[4. ZBA Reports and Discussion Items]

FOUR ZBA REPORTS AND DISCUSSION ITEMS. NEXT ITEM ON THE AGENDA ITEM FOUR A, RECEIVE A REPORT AND HOLD A DISCUSSION ON THE ROLES, RULES AND JURISDICTION OF THE ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT.

STAFF PRESENTER MATT RIBITZKI DEPUTY CITY ATTORNEY COMPLIANCE MANAGER.

WOULD. I'M READY.

THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

TAKE IT AWAY, SIR, PLEASE.

WILL DO. YOU MAY REGRET THAT YOU HANDED THE REINS OVER TO ME.

SO BE PREPARED TO BE PUT ASLEEP.

IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE SLEEPING AT NIGHT.

YOU CAN PULL THIS UP ON YOUR COMPUTER AND LISTEN TO IT LATER.

THANK YOU FOR THE INTRODUCTION. MY NAME IS MATT RIBITZKI, I'M THE DEPUTY CITY ATTORNEY FOR THE CITY OF BURLESON.

I APPRECIATE EVERYONE BEING HERE TONIGHT.

WHAT WE'RE GOING TO GO OVER IS ESSENTIALLY JUST AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT THE ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT IS.

AND I'M GOING TO USE A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT TERMS. I'LL SAY ZBA.

I'LL SAY THE BOARD.

I MAY SAY THE BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT.

IT'S ALL THE SAME THING. WHEN I'M TALKING ABOUT THE BOARD AT ZBA.

I'M ALL TALKING ABOUT THE SAME BOARD HERE.

IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, FEEL FREE TO STOP ME THROUGHOUT THE PRESENTATION.

YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT MY SLIDES AND WE'RE READY TO GO.

BUT ANY TIME YOU HAVE A QUESTION, FEEL FREE TO ASK.

RIGHT. WELL, WITHOUT FURTHER ADO, HERE IS OUR AGENDA FOR TONIGHT.

WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH THIS IN ABOUT THREE, MAYBE 4 HOURS.

WE'LL SEE. WE'LL SEE. NO, I'M KIDDING.

OF COURSE. I ACTUALLY DON'T THINK IT'LL TAKE US THIS LONG.

LET ME TELL YOU WHAT IS EBA DOES CAN GET VERY COMPLICATED.

AND BEFORE WE JUMP INTO THE AGENDA, I'LL SAY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, I THINK, FOR THE ZBA TO DO ZBA TO DO SHOW UP.

AND A LOT OF CITIES THAT HAVE TROUBLE OF ZBA SHOWING UP.

OBVIOUSLY, ALL OF YOU ALL SHOWED UP HERE TONIGHT.

I GREATLY APPRECIATE IT.

BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING.

THE ZBA IS AN EXCEPTIONALLY IMPORTANT BOARD UNDER LAW, BUT IT'S ONLY CALLED WHEN NEEDED.

YOU KNOW, IT'S ONLY IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS DO YOU ALL CALL UP.

YOU DON'T HAVE ROUTINE MEETINGS.

IT'S ONLY IF THERE'S A HEARING THAT HAS BEEN SET, AN APPEAL TO THE EPA HAS BEEN FILED.

BUT LOTS OF CITIES HAVE PROBLEMS WHEN THEY CAN'T HAVE IT BECAUSE THE ZBA MEETS SO INFREQUENTLY THAT WHEN IT'S TIME TO BE CALLED UPON, THE ZBA DOESN'T SHOW UP.

SO I THINK YOU REALLY SO MUCH FOR SHOWING UP.

IT IS IMPORTANT, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVEN'T TO LISTEN TO MY BORING PRESENTATION.

BUT ZBA IS VERY COMPLICATED AND WHAT I REALLY WANT TO DO IS JUST GIVE YOU AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT THE ZBA DOES.

REALLY. I HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH THREE THINGS WITH THIS TRAINING.

FIRST, I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND WHAT A ZBA IS AND WHY IT DOES WHAT IT DOES.

SECOND, I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THE BASIC ZBA WHAT IS BASIC ZBA CASE WOULD LOOK LIKE WHEN YOU HAVE A REAL HEARING IN FRONT OF HERE, NOT THIS BORING PRESENTATION. WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE? WHAT CAN YOU EXPECT? CAN'T GET DOWN REALLY IN THE NITTY GRITTY BECAUSE SO OFTEN THEY'RE SO FACT SPECIFIC.

BUT I THINK WE CAN LOOK GENERALLY WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT A HEARING TO LOOK LIKE.

WHAT TYPE OF CASES DOES A ZBA LOOK LIKE? WHAT DOES THE ANATOMY OF A HEARING IN FRONT OF THE ZBA LOOK LIKE? SO I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT LAST KIND OF THIRD GOAL FOR TONIGHT'S PRESENTATIONS IS I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THE DO'S AND DON'TS OF BEING A ZBA MEMBER.

THERE ARE SOME BASIC THINGS TO KEEP IN MIND.

ANY TIME SOME OF THESE SOME OF THOSE THINGS ARE BASIC THINGS.

WHEN YOU SERVE ON ANY BOARD OR COMMISSION IN THE CITY, AND SOME OF THEM ARE SPECIFIC TO BEING A ZBA, BEING A ZBA BOARD MEMBER.

[00:05:04]

SO THOSE ARE THE THREE THINGS I HOPE WE LEARN TONIGHT AND THEN AND HOPING, DO WE ACCOMPLISH THAT? HERE'S OUR AGENDA. WE'LL GO WE'LL GO THROUGH PRACTICAL EXPECTATIONS.

WHAT IS THE ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT? WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE CREATION OF THE ZBA, THE ZBA AUTHORITY AND TYPES OF CASES WHO CAN APPEAL TO THE ZBA MEETING PROCEDURES, THE APPEALS FROM THE ZBA DECISION.

THAT MEANS WORD IS, IF SOMEBODY DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOUR DECISION, WHERE DOES THAT GO? WHO APPEALS FROM Y'ALLS DECISION? AND THEN WE'LL TALK A LITTLE ABOUT THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.

SO HERE ARE THE FIRST TWO AGENDA ITEMS PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS.

AND WHAT IS THE ZBA? FIRST PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS.

LET'S SET THE TONE OF A ZBA HEARING.

WHILE IT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, GENERALLY SPEAKING, EXPECT A ZBA HEARING TO BE FAIRLY TENSE.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T EXPECT TO BE BORED LIKE YOU ARE GOING TO BE TONIGHT, BUT MOST PEOPLE AREN'T ALWAYS HAPPY TO BE IN FRONT OF THE ZBA.

LOTS OF TIMES PEOPLE ARE IN FRONT OF THE ZBA BECAUSE THINGS AREN'T GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN.

SOMETIMES THE APPLICANT CAN'T USE THEIR PROPERTY THE WAY THEY THINK THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO.

OTHER TIMES THERE MAY BE A DEVELOPMENT DEAL THAT POTENTIALLY IS HANGING IN THE BALANCE.

SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES, IT CAN BE TENSE.

YOU'RE A QUASI JUDICIAL BODY.

I'M GOING TO SAY THAT PROBABLY OVER UNDER PROBABLY FIVE TIMES TONIGHT AS A QUASI JUDICIAL BODY, YOU HAVE A HEARING AND YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM DIFFERENT SIDES.

YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR ESSENTIALLY FROM THE CITY.

YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM THE APPLICANT, WHICH IS GENERALLY THE PROPERTY OWNER.

AND YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC.

THERE'S ACTUALLY A THIRD OPTION THAT THESE ARE ALL PUBLIC HEARINGS IN FRONT OF YOU UPSTAIRS, THAT THERE'S A PART WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR HEARINGS, THAT THE PUBLIC IS NOTICED AND THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO IT.

SO THERE CAN BE A LOT OF TENSION IN THE ROOM WHEN YOU WALK IN.

SO BE PREPARED FOR THAT. IT'S JUST LIKE IN A JURY TRIAL OR ANY OTHER COURT SETTING WHERE THINGS CAN BE TENSE.

THE CRIMINAL TRIAL HAVE THAT EXPECTATION WHEN IT HAPPENS THAT THINGS COULD BE TENSE.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN SOMETHING'S GONE WRONG.

THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE BUSINESS OF THE ZBA.

AND REALLY IT'S YOUR JOB.

AND I SAY APPLY THE CITY'S ORDINANCES AS WRITTEN.

IT'S YOUR JOB TO BE PREPARED FOR THAT AND JUST APPLY THE FACTS AND THE LAW, THE ORDINANCES AS YOU SEE FIT.

RIGHT? DON'T LET THE EMOTION, DON'T LET THE ATTENTION UNSETTLE YOU.

RIGHT. THAT'S THAT'S TO EXPECT.

JUST LET THE LAW AND THE FACTS GUIDE YOU.

RIGHT. VERY OMINOUS START.

I DIDN'T MEAN THAT TO BE AS DARK.

ALL RIGHT, SO WHAT IS THE ZBA? THE ZBA IS A SORT OF SAFETY VALVE TO PREVENT THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL OR UNLAWFUL APPLICATION OF CITY ORDINANCES.

AGAIN, IT'S A QUASI JUDICIAL BODY.

THAT'S TWO TIMES I'VE SAID THAT ALREADY.

I'M GOING TO BE OVER ON THAT.

OVER UNDER, ON FIVE THERE.

AND THE ZBA ACTS AS THE FACT FINDER.

ESSENTIALLY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO PRESENT THEIR CASE TO YOU.

YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR ALL THE EVIDENCE AND THEN MAKE A DECISION BY APPLYING THE LAW.

THE ORDINANCE IS ON FILE.

THERE'S NO APPEAL TO YOU, TO THE CITY COUNCIL.

YOU ARE THE LAST BOARD IN THIS CITY THAT RULES ON THIS.

YOU'RE THE LAST ORGANIZATION, THE LAST ORGAN OF THE CITY THAT MAKES A DETERMINATION ON THIS.

ANY APPEAL FROM ALL THIS TAKING? IT'S TAKEN TO A DISTRICT COURT.

SO THERE'S NO APPEAL TO THE CITY COUNCIL.

THIS DOESN'T GO ANYWHERE ELSE. YOU ALL ARE THE LAST LINE OF DEFENSE ON THE TYPES OF CASES THAT YOU ALL ARE ENTITLED TO HEAR.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S.

IT CAN.

AGAIN, IT'S VERY FACT SPECIFIC, AND WE'LL COVER THAT LATER ON.

BUT ESSENTIALLY WHAT WHAT YOUR JOB IS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ZONING ORDINANCE, YOU'RE HERE TO MAKE SURE THE LAW IS APPLIED FAIRLY.

IT'S A DUE PROCESS MECHANISM.

IF YOU UNDERSTAND DUE PROCESS, EVERYBODY KIND OF HAS THEIR DAY IN COURT.

THAT'S ESSENTIALLY YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HEARD.

THAT'S WHAT DUE PROCESS IS ALL ABOUT.

AND IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE, OUR OUR PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT TEAM ESSENTIALLY APPLIES TO ZONING ORDINANCE SAYS, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. NO, YOU CAN'T GET THAT PERMIT.

NO, YOU CAN'T GET THAT PERMIT.

TONY CAN TELL YOU ALL ABOUT IT.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

24 SEVEN. AND THERE ARE TIMES WHERE.

ESSENTIALLY WHAT THIS PROCESS ALLOWS, WHAT THE ZBA DOES IS HEAR APPEALS AND SOMEBODY SAYS, I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT.

ACTUALLY, I THINK WE NEED SOMEBODY ELSE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.

THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT THE ZBA IS.

IT'S THIS RELIEF, THE SAFETY VALVE, THIS RELIEF VALVE FROM POTENTIALLY, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT NEGATIVELY.

SOME BUREAUCRATIC INTERPRETATION OF WHAT THE LAW SAYS.

AND THAT'S WHERE YOU ALL COME IN. THERE'S YOU SET STANDARDS, YOU ALL GET TO LOOK AND BASICALLY DOUBLE CHECK WHAT WE DO.

IT'LL MAKE MORE SENSE.

MOSTLY IN THE NEXT PART.

[00:10:03]

LET'S TALK ABOUT WHERE THE ZBA COMES FROM HERE.

WE'RE GOING TO TALKING ABOUT WHO CREATED THE ZBA, WHO PUT TOGETHER THIS WACKY OUTFIT ? THE ZBA INITIALLY COMES FROM STATE LAW.

CHAPTER 211 OF THE TEXAS LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE LIST OUT MANY THINGS, AND ONE OF THE THINGS IT DOES IS IT TALKS ABOUT THE ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT AND IT GIVES US THE BARE BONES OF WHAT THE ZBA IS.

CHAPTER 211 DOESN'T NECESSARILY REQUIRE THAT CITIES FORM A ZBA, BUT GENERALLY, IF YOU HAVE A ZONING ORDINANCE, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THAT THE ZBA IS GOING TO BE PUT IN PLACE. IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR IN THE KIND OF THE SUB BULLET POINTS SETS AUTHORITY TO THE BOARD THAT'S SECTION TWO 11.009. THE NEXT SECTION IN THE CODE TO 11.010 THAT SETS THE PROCEDURE FOR APPEAL TO THE BOARD.

HOW DOES IT LOOK? IT PUT SOME BASIC FRAMEWORK ABOUT WHAT THAT'S HOW DO PEOPLE GET IN FRONT OF YOU.

THERE'S SOME STATE LAW REQUIREMENTS.

SECTION TWO 1110 SETS UP THE BASIC PROCESS OF HOW SOMEBODY FILES AN APPEAL, YOU KNOW, EXCUSE ME TO 11 SETS OF PARAMETERS, HOW SOMEONE CAN FILE AN APPEAL.

THE DECISION OF THIS BOARD, WE'LL GO INTO GO INTO A LITTLE MORE DETAIL.

BUT ESSENTIALLY THERE ARE CERTAIN RULES THAT ARE PUT INTO PLACE IN STATE LAW.

THAT'S WHAT I WANT YOU TO COME AWAY WITH.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO REQUIRE STATE LAW SAYS YOU DON'T HAVE TO SET ONE UP.

BUT IF YOU DO SET ONE UP, YOU HAVE TO ABIDE BY CERTAIN RULES.

AND MOST OF THAT'S TAKEN CARE OF ON A STAFF PERSPECTIVE.

THERE'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN SOMEBODY FILES SAYS, I WANT TO APPEAR IN FRONT OF THE ZBA, THERE'S A CERTAIN TIME LIMIT IN CHAPTER 211 THAT WE HAVE TO GET THAT APPLICANT IN FRONT OF YOU ALL.

WE HAVE 60 DAYS TO DO THAT, THAT THAT HAS TO BE HEARD AND CITY STAFF PROCESSES THAT END.

BUT THAT'S ALWAYS GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES.

THERE'S OTHER CODES OR OTHER SECTION REQUIREMENTS THAT TALKS ABOUT CERTAIN DECISIONS.

HOW MANY OF YOU ALL HAVE TO BE IN FAVOR OF SOMETHING IN ORDER FOR IT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN? IT'S NOT TYPICALLY IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

STATE LAW SAYS IT CAN'T BE.

JUST A SIMPLE MAJORITY HAS TO BE A SUPERMAJORITY.

OUR ZONING ORDINANCE SAYS THAT ESSENTIALLY EVERY DECISION THAT YOU ALL MAKE HAS TO BE BY SUPERMAJORITY, HAS TO BE AT LEAST AT LEAST 75%.

SO THERE'S SOME BONES.

THEY'RE PUT TOGETHER BY STATE LAW.

AND THEN THOSE BONES ARE KIND OF THAT'S KIND OF A WACKY SLIDE.

NOW THAT'S IN PRESENTATION MODE, BUT.

THE BONES ARE IN STATE LAW.

THE MEAT IS PUT TOGETHER THROUGH THE CITY'S ORDINANCES AND HOME RULE CHARTER.

WHILE STATE LAW DOESN'T REQUIRE US TO HAVE A ZBA OUR CHARTER.

DOES YOUR HOME RULE CHARTERS ESSENTIALLY LIKE YOUR CITY CONSTITUTION? AND IT'S PASSED BY THE VOTERS.

IT STATES THAT WE ARE A HOME RULE CITY WHICH GIVES US ADDITIONAL POWERS UNDER LAW AS OPPOSED TO A GENERAL LAW CITY.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE VOTERS SAID IN GRANTING THESE POWERS OF BEING A HOME RULE MUNICIPALITY IS THAT THE CITY COUNCIL SHELL CREATE A ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT.

SO THIS SPECIFIC BOARD IS CREATED, OR AT LEAST THE REQUIREMENT FOR IT TO BE EQUATED, BE CREATED AS IN THE HOME RULE CHARTER.

AND THEN YOU GO TO SECTION 11 OF APPENDIX B THAT YOU'RE ZONING ORDINANCE.

IT'S A MASSIVE ORDINANCE, AND THEN IT TALKS ABOUT THE BOARD ITSELF.

FOR RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE FIVE MEMBERS AND FOUR ALTERNATES FOR JUST, WHAT, TWO MORE? TWO MORE MONTHS. ONE MORE MONTH.

FEBRUARY IS FALLING BY.

YES, I GUESS JUST ONE MORE MONTH.

FIVE WEEKS, PERHAPS.

AND THEN AFTER APRIL 1ST, THE COUNCIL HAS ALREADY PASSED AN AMENDMENT TO THAT ORDINANCE WHERE STARTING APRIL 1ST WE'LL HAVE NINE MEMBERS WITH THREE ALTERNATES.

THE ZBA MEMBERS, AS YOU ALL KNOW, ARE APPOINTED BY CITY COUNCIL.

YOU'LL SERVE 33 YEAR TERMS. THE ZBA MUST HAVE AT LEAST FOUR MEMBERS TO HEAR A CASE.

AND REGARDING AN APRIL 1ST OR STARTING ON APRIL 1ST, THAT NUMBER WILL INCREASE TO SEVEN.

IT'S THAT STAGE. SO MOST OF THE TIME YOU'RE QUORUM AND MOST BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS AS JUST A MAJORITY OF YOUR MEMBERS.

AGAIN, IT'S A SUPERMAJORITY FOR THE ZBA.

WHICH IS WHY ALTERNATES ARE SO IMPORTANT.

I DON'T KNOW OF ANY OTHER BOARD THAT HAS ALTERNATES THAT CAN JUST SLIDE IN AND SERVE AS A REGULAR MEMBER IN THE ABSENCE OF ANOTHER MEMBER.

BUT THIS BOARD IS ONE OF THEM.

AGAIN, PART OF IT IS, LIKE I SAID AT THE VERY BEGINNING PRESENTATION, YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN THE ZBA NEEDS TO MEET, IT CAN MEET WITH A FULL QUORUM.

AND SINCE YOUR QUORUM REQUIREMENTS ARE SO HIGH, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE ALTERNATES.

THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT YOU ALL SHOW UP TO.

WE HAVE TO HAVE THOSE THRESHOLDS.

ALL RIGHT. NEXT ON THE AGENDA IS TO TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF CASES THE VA HEARS.

THIS IS REALLY YOU CAN LOOK AT IT AND YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THE TYPE OF CASES THAT APPEAR BEFORE YOU.

ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT IT WOULD BE THE TYPE OF AUTHORITY THAT YOU ALL HAVE, BECAUSE UNLESS YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO HEAR THE CASE, THE CASE DOESN'T COME BEFORE YOU.

[00:15:04]

SO I CALL IT ZBA CASES.

I THINK FROM SITTING IN YOUR CHAIRS THAT MAKES MORE SENSE TO THE TYPE OF CASES THAT COME BEFORE YOU.

BUT REALLY, WHEN YOU GET DOWN TO IT LEGALLY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE AUTHORITY THAT THIS BOARD HAS.

SO THERE ARE FOUR DIFFERENT TYPES OF CASES THAT ZBA CAN HEAR UNDER OUR ZONING ORDINANCE.

ONE IS THE APPEALS OF THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR DETERMINATIONS.

THE SECOND IS VARIANCES FROM THE ZONING ORDINANCE.

THIRD IS SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS TO THE ZONING ORDINANCE.

AND THEN ANOTHER ONE IS REGARDING THE LAST ONE REGARDING NON CONFORMING USE.

WE'RE GOING TO GO THROUGH EACH ONE OF THESE AND A LITTLE MORE DETAIL.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT APPEALS FROM THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR.

THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICIAL CHARGED WITH THE INTERPRETATION OF ENFORCEMENT OF THE CITY'S ZONING ORDINANCE.

AGAIN, THOSE DETERMINATIONS DON'T HAVE TO BE TAKEN AT FACE VALUE.

IF SOMEBODY DOESN'T AGREE WITH IT, THEY CAN APPEAL IT TO TO THIS BOARD.

AN EXAMPLE OF THIS SITUATION WOULD BE IF A PERMIT WAS DENIED.

THE APPLICANT THINKS THAT THAT DENIAL WAS IN ERROR AND SHOULD BE APPROVED.

WELL, THE REMEDY IS DON'T SUE IN COURT FIRST, COME IN FRONT OF THIS BODY AND ARGUE YOUR CASE TO SEE IF THAT SITUATION CAN BE REMEDIED.

AND IN THAT CASE, THE ZBA WOULD SIT AND HEAR ALL OF THE EVIDENCE AND DETERMINE WHETHER THE ZONING ORDINANCE WAS PROPERLY APPLIED.

THEY'LL DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT YOU'LL GET TO HEAR THE FACTS AND EVIDENCE, SEE WHAT THE LAW SAYS, SEE WHAT THE FACTS ARE, AND MAKE A DETERMINATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT.

THAT PERMIT WAS PROPERLY DENIED IN THIS CASE.

IN A CASE LIKE THIS, THERE IS NO BURDEN OF PROOF.

OTHER CASES WILL GO THROUGH.

YOU'LL SEE THERE ARE CERTAIN BURDENS OF PROOF.

THAT MEANS A BURDEN OF PROOF MEANS WHO HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVE THE CASE? WHO BEARS THAT BURDEN? TO LET THE EVIDENCE TO CONVINCE YOU, TO LET THE EVIDENCE SHOW THAT WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS CORRECT.

IN THIS SITUATION, THERE'S NO BURDEN OF PROOF.

NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT VARIANTS.

SO THAT'S A REALLY BUSY SLIDE THERE.

AGAIN, VARIANCES ARE PROBABLY THE MOST COMMON TYPE OF ZBA APPEALS, A VARIANCE VARIANCES WHEN SOMEONE NEEDS A SLIGHT CHANGE TO A RULE IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE BECAUSE OF SOME CONDITION OF THEIR PROPERTY.

AN EXAMPLE OF A VARIANCE WOULD BE ASKING FOR A CHANGE TO THE SETBACK REQUIREMENT IN OUR ORDINANCE.

BE BETTER IF I ASKED TONY WHAT THE SETBACK REQUIREMENTS HE'D NO MORE NOT WOULD.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE CERTAIN SITUATIONS WHERE YOUR SETBACK REQUIREMENT IS FIVE FEET.

THAT MEANS YOU CAN'T BUILD WITHIN FIVE FEET OF THE PROPERTY LINE.

THERE HAS TO BE SPACE.

YOU CAN'T JUST HAVE KNOW BUILDING ON BUILDING.

THERE'S GOT TO BE SOME SIDE AREA THERE.

BUT THERE'S SOMEBODY THAT SPOT A ZONING ORDINANCE.

THERE COULD BE SOMEBODY THAT SAYS, I'VE GOT A SPECIAL CONDITION ON MY PROPERTY BECAUSE OF THE SLOPE, BECAUSE OF WHAT'S OVER HERE, BECAUSE THE NEIGHBORING PROPERTIES, THERE'S SOME UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCE THAT I DIDN'T CREATE MYSELF.

THAT MEANS I CAN'T DO FIVE FEET, BUT I CAN DO FOUR FEET.

I CAN DO FOUR FEET. AND I'M GOING TO ARGUE WHY THAT SHOULD BE APPLIED OR WHY I SHOULD BE GRANTED THAT VARIANCE.

AND THEY CAN FILE FOR A VARIANCE.

THEY APPEAR BEFORE THIS BOARD, THEY ARGUE THEIR CASE, AND THEN YOU MAKE A DETERMINATION AS OF GROUP OF WHETHER THAT VARIANCE IS APPROPRIATE.

NOW, IF YOU LOOK ON THAT SLIDE, YOU APPLY THIS IS A STANDARD THAT YOU APPLY WHEN YOU'RE GRANTING A VARIANCE AND YOU CAN SEE IT'S SUPER LONG AND INTIMIDATING. AND IF SOMEBODY WAS GOOD AT CREATING PRESENTATIONS, THEY'D NEVER PUT THIS MUCH TEXT ON ONE SLIDE.

BUT ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU DO IS, AGAIN, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CHARACTER, YOU HEAR ALL THE EVIDENCE AND YOU APPLY THE STANDARD LIST.

THIS HAPPENS TO BE THE STANDARD.

THE APPLICANT IN THIS CASE BEARS THE BURDEN OF PROOF.

SOMEBODY SEEKING A VARIANCE BEARS THE BURDEN TO PROVE THAT THEY MEET ALL OF THESE ELEMENTS.

IF THE VARIANCE CHECKS ALL THE BOXES, THEN THE ZBA CAN GRANT THE VARIANCE UNDER THE ORDINANCE.

IF IT DOESN'T MEET ALL THE REQUIREMENTS LISTED ON THE SLIDE.

AND THE ZBA REALLY CAN'T OR SHOULDN'T GRANT THE VARIANCE.

YOU CAN TELL BY READING THROUGH THERE.

IF YOU'RE KIND OF JUST LOOKING OVER THE ELEMENTS, THE REQUIREMENTS, THE STANDARDS ARE SIGNIFICANT, BUT THE VARIANCE PROCESS IS SO VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE WAY I'VE ALWAYS LOOKED AT IT IS THE CITY IS A BIG CITY.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY SQUARE MILES, BUT WE LIVE IN A VERY IF YOU LOOK AT THE CITY LIMITS, A VERY ALMOST LOOKS LIKE AN OCTOPUS.

WE'VE GOT A TENTACLE GOING DOWN 35.

I GOT ANOTHER TENTACLE OFF CHISOLM TRAIL PARKWAY.

WE COVER ALL SORTS OF LAND.

[00:20:01]

WHEN YOU'RE COMING UP WITH THE ZONING ORDINANCE, WE'RE COMING UP WITH SITUATIONS THAT FIT NEATLY WITHIN A BOX.

AND THAT'S REALLY EASY TO DO ON PAPER, RIGHT? IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT IT BE DONE FOR THE HEALTH, SAFETY AND GENERAL WELFARE OF THE CITY.

BUT IT'S REALLY EASY TO CREATE ON PAPER AND SAY, MAN, LOOK, THIS IS PERFECT, LOOK AT THIS THING.

BUT THEN YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO APPLY IT TO THE LAND ITSELF, TO THE PROPERTY ITSELF.

AND NO, NO, TWO PIECES OF PROPERTY ARE EVER ALIKE.

AND, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY THAT'S WHY WE HAVE VARIANCES.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THIS PROCESS BECAUSE THERE ARE TIMES WHERE THERE CAN BE YOU CAN HAVE A GREAT A VERY UNJUST RESULT IN A STRICT APPLICATION OF A ZONING ORDINANCE TO A PIECE OF PROPERTY.

THAT'S NOT YOUR AVERAGE BEAR, THAT'S NOT YOUR STANDARD PIECE OF PROPERTY THAT HAS SUCH UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS THAT THAT WEREN'T CREATED BY THE PROPERTY OWNER, THAT THEY NEED SOME RELIEF. THEY NEED JUST A LITTLE CHANGE IN ORDER TO SATISFY AND REALLY GET AT THE HEART AND FULFILL THE SPIRIT AND FULFILL THE PURPOSE OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE.

RIGHT. IT MAY NOT MEET THE LETTER OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE, BUT YOU CAN MAKE THIS LITTLE CHANGE, THIS LITTLE VARIANCE, AND IT REALLY HITS AT THE SPIRIT OF THE ORDINANCE.

THAT'S WHAT A VARIANCE IS.

SEE. I COULD HAVE JUST READ THE SLIDE, RIGHT? I MEAN. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE THIRD TYPE.

AND THIS ONE SOUNDS A LOT LIKE A VARIANCE, BUT IT'S REALLY NOT A SPECIAL EXCEPTION.

THESE IT'S KIND OF RELATED, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFERENT.

THESE ARE LAND USES THAT YOU DON'T WANT THE PROLIFERATION OF USES WITHIN A ZONING DISTRICT, BUT IN SMALL MEASURE THEY CAN BE OK.

YOU JUST CAN'T HAVE THEM ANYWHERE, ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE.

IF THEY WERE ANYWHERE IN EVERYWHERE, THEY WOULD, YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD SINK THE ZONING DISTRICT.

YOU COULD MAYBE HAVE IT A LITTLE IN COMMERCIAL, BUT IF THAT'S WHAT THE ENTIRE DISTRICT WAS AND THE ONLY COMMERCIAL, IT WOULD BE A BLIGHT, IT WOULD BE TERRIBLE.

BUT IN A LITTLE BIT IT WOULD BE OK.

THAT'S WHAT ESSENTIALLY A SPECIAL EXCEPTION IS.

IT'S HARD TO EXPLAIN THESE THINGS.

SO LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

AN EXAMPLE, AND THIS IS IN OUR ZONING ORDINANCE FOR A SPECIAL EXCEPTION THAT SOMEBODY, IF THEY WANT TO DO IT, THEY HAVE TO COME BEFORE YOU ALL.

IT'S FOR LIKE A TV STATION THAT HAS LOTS OF BIG MILITARY LOOKING SATELLITES, ANTENNAS AND EVERYTHING ELSE DISHES.

AND THEY'RE YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD A TON OF THOSE JUST EVERYWHERE, IT WOULD BE LIKE AN EYESORE LOOK LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE TRYING TO LAND ON THE MOON OR SOMETHING AND THAT MAY NOT BE APPROPRIATE AND WHATEVER THE ZONING DISTRICT IS.

BUT IN A SMALL, LIMITED SITUATION WITHIN THE RIGHT, IF THEY PUT IT IN THE RIGHT SITUATION AND THE RIGHT DISTRICT, WELL, MAYBE YOU COULD HAVE IT A LITTLE BIT HERE.

AND YEAH, I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT YOU ALL ARE THERE TO DETERMINE THAT.

IS IT OKAY IN THIS IN THIS LITTLE BIT? IS THIS SPECIAL EXCEPTION HERE? WOULD IT WORK HERE? AND YOU ARE GIVEN A LOT OF LEEWAY IN DETERMINING THAT.

ALL RIGHT. THE LAST TYPE OF CASE THAT YOU ALL COULD HEAR, THE LAST KIND OF CASE THAT YOU ALL HAVE AUTHORITY OVER IS NON CONFORMING USES AND THE ZBA PLAYS A ROLE IN NON CONFORMING USES.

YOU CAN SEE THE SLIDE THERE. ZBA MAY PERMIT THE RECONSTRUCTION EXTENSION ENLARGEMENT OF THE BUILDING OCCUPIED BY NON CONFORMING USE ON THE LOT OF TRACK OCCUPIED BY THE BUILDING AND THE ADDITION OF OFF STREET PARKING OR OFF STREET LOADING TO A NON CONFORMING USE.

I DON'T THINK IT DID ANY BODY ANY FAVORS BY ME READING THAT OUT LOUD.

WHAT THAT REALLY MEANS. THE NON CONFORMING USE IS SOMETHING THAT BASED ON THE ZONING DISTRICT AS IT CURRENTLY SITS TODAY, THAT USE WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED, BUT IT IS ALLOWED BECAUSE IT IS EXISTED.

IT EXISTED BEFORE THE ZONING DISTRICT WAS PUT IN PLACE.

SO IT'S A NON CONFORMING USE.

A CONFORMING USE WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT'S ALLOWED BY THAT ZONING DISTRICT WHICH IT FINDS ITSELF.

AND SO IT'S A NON CONFORMING USE AND THERE ARE TIMES IT'S EASY TO UNDERSTAND LIKE A NON CONFORMING USE.

LET'S SAY YOU, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO MAKE SOMETHING.

I'M GOING TO BUTCHER THIS.

DON'T LAUGH AT ME, TONY, BUT I'VE CUT MY HEAD.

LET'S SAY YOU THERE'S BEEN A PICKLE FACTORY.

YOU KNOW, IN THIS OLD FARM FIELD.

THERE USED TO BE NOTHING AROUND THIS PICKLE FACTORY.

YOU JUST HAVE THIS PICKLE FACTORY HERE.

BUT AS TIME HAS GONE ON AND YOU HAVE ALL THESE DIFFERENT USES, ALL THESE NEIGHBORHOODS THAT COME ACROSS AND COME, COME REALLY CLOSE, AND THEY'VE BUILT ALL AROUND THIS PICKLE FACTORY. AND GENERALLY SPEAKING, YOU KNOW, YOU GET AN ANNEX AND IT'S REALLY ZONED RESIDENTIAL.

BUT THAT PICKLE FACTORY'S BEEN THERE FOREVER.

IT'S BEEN THERE BEFORE THE ZONING ORDINANCE.

AND SO IT'S ALWAYS BEEN ALLOWED AND EVERYONE KIND OF UNDERSTANDS THAT.

YEAH, IT WAS THERE BEFORE THE ZONING ORDINANCE.

PEOPLE CAME AROUND AT FIRST AND SO THAT NON CONFORMING USE WOULD BE ALLOWED.

BUT WHAT GETS TRICKY IS AS TIME GOES ON, THAT BUSINESS DOESN'T STAY THE SAME.

THE PICKLE FACTORY DOESN'T JUST EXIST IN A VACUUM.

AND THE WAY IT WAS IN 1950S, THE WAYS IN 1970, 1990 AND 2010 AND 2030.

YOU KNOW, THEY MAY NEED MORE BAYS, THEY MAY NEED TO DO THAT BUILDING'S TOO OLD OR SO HOW DOES THAT LOOK?

[00:25:03]

HOW DOES THAT NON CONFORMING USE LOOK? THEY MAY NEED TO TEAR THIS DOWN OR REBUILD THIS.

THEY MAY DO IT, ENLARGE IT.

YOU CAN GET IN REALLY WEIRD SITUATIONS.

WHAT I'M SAYING IS WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HEAR THE FACTS OF IT, OF A NON CONFORMING USE.

AND SO THAT'S THE FOURTH TYPE OF CASE THAT YOU'LL HAVE THE ABILITY TO LOOK TO REVIEW AND LOOK OVER IS WHEN YOU HAVE THOSE NON CONFORMING USES CHANGE.

CLEAR AS MUD. EVERYBODY'S STILL AWAKE.

ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALK ABOUT MEETING PROCEDURES.

SO THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE NEXT ON THE AGENDA.

I'M GOING TO ESSENTIALLY COVER HOW PEOPLE CAN SET THEIR CASE IN FRONT OF THE ZBA AND WHAT AN ACTUAL ZBA MEETING LOOKS LIKE.

SO FIRST, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHO CAN FILE A CASE IN FRONT OF THE ZBA.

AND THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF AN OVERSIMPLIFICATION.

YOU REMEMBER WE HAD FOUR CASES.

THIS IS TRUE OF OF MOST OF THE CASES, NOT ALL.

SOME OF THE SOME OF THE CASES JUST HAVE TWO PEOPLE THAT CAN TWO OUT OF THESE FOUR THAT CAN APPLY.

BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHO CAN APPEAL TO THE ZBA, IT'S THESE FOUR PEOPLE.

IT'S THE PERSON THAT FILED THE APPLICATION THAT IS SUBJECT TO THE APPEAL.

THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY THAT IS SUBJECT TO APPEAL.

THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. THE APPLICANT MAY NOT ALWAYS BE THE OWNER AND OFTENTIMES IT'S NOT THE OWNER.

YOU MAY HAVE SOMEBODY THAT'S BUYING THE PROPERTY AND WANTS TO REZONE IT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT THEY'RE NOT THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY.

THEY DON'T GET THE ZONING THEY WANT.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BUY IT. RIGHT.

SO THE APPLICANT, THE OWNER COULD BE TWO SEPARATE PEOPLE, BUT THEY BOTH CAN FOLLOW WITH THE ZBA THE CITY, IT'S OFFICERS AND DEPARTMENT HEADS AND BOARDS, THAT'S VERY BROAD.

DOES THE CITY CAN APPEAL TO THE ZBA? AND THEN THERE'S ANY PERSON AGGRIEVED BY THE DECISION AND IS THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY WITHIN 200 FEET OF THE PROPERTY, THAT'S SUBJECT TO THE APPEAL.

THAT'S NOT TRUE OF EVERY CASE.

THAT'S TRUE WITHIN A VARIANCE.

SO REMEMBER I TOLD YOU ABOUT CHAPTER 211.

IT GIVES US ALL THIS LITTLE STUFF.

Y'ALL DON'T REALLY EVER SEE THIS, BUT TONY'S TEAM IS OVER THERE DOING HAS THIS LITTLE CHECKLIST AND THEY'RE CHECKING, MAKING SURE WE DID ALL THIS STUFF.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY DO IS THEY GIVE A NOTICE.

WHEN SOMEBODY FILES FOR A VARIANCE, THEY HAVE TO NOTIFY THESE OTHER PROPERTY OWNERS.

AND IF YOU DO SOMETHING THEY DON'T LIKE, I TOLD YOU, SOMETIMES IT CAN BE TENSE IN HERE IF YOU SAID, OH, YEAH, IT'S PICKLE FACTORY, TOM.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THAT PICKLE FACTORY EVERYWHERE.

WE'RE GOING TO PUT THAT NEXT IN SOME PLACE.

AND NOBODY LIKES IT. THOSE THE PEOPLE, THE SURROUNDING PROPERTY OWNERS IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS AND CERTAIN CASES CAN FILE THAT APPEAL TO THE DISTRICT COURT OR EXCUSE ME, CAN FOLLOW THAT APPEAL TO THE ZBA.

SO PRACTICALLY, WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE? OH, THAT SLIDE'S REALLY BUTCHERED.

I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH MY FONT HERE, BECAUSE WHEN I.

WHEN I PUT IT IN NON PRESENTATION MODE, YOU CAN.

YOU CAN TELL DIDN'T GO THROUGH THIS.

I ALWAYS LOOK AT IT NOTE MODE.

IT'S FINE, BUT I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT.

PRACTICALLY, HOW DO THESE PEOPLE FILE AND APPEAL TO ZBA? WELL, A PERSON FILES AN APPLICATION THAT'S RECEIVED AND PROCESSED BY CITY STAFF.

AGAIN, LIKE I ALLUDED TO JUST A MINUTE AGO, THERE ARE CERTAIN NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS THAT WE'VE GOT TO DO, AND THE CITY STAFF TAKES CARE OF THOSE NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS.

THERE'S A SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF TIME THAT HAS TO OCCUR.

IF A PERSON FILES AN APPLICATION, THEY HAVE TO SHOW UP IN FRONT OF YOU WITHIN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME THAT'S SPECIFIED BY ORDINANCE.

THE ZBA SETS THE HEARING, GIVES PUBLIC NOTICE OF THE HEARING, NOTIFIES THE REAL PROPERTY OWNERS WITHIN 200 FEET OF THE HEARING.

THE ZBA MUST HEAR THE PILL WITHIN 60 DAYS.

THE BOARD, NOW, THIS IS NOT SPECIFIC ABOUT THE MEETINGS, BUT THE BOARD MAY ADOPT PROCEDURES INTERNALLY.

THAT'S NOT BEEN DONE TO MY KNOWLEDGE, WITH THIS BOARD.

BUT CERTAIN ZBAS BUSIER ZBAS MAY HAVE KIND OF POLICIES AND PROCEDURES THAT THEY PUT IN PLACE INTERNALLY.

COUNCIL HAS A NUMBER OF POLICIES THEY PUT IN PLACE TO GOVERN CERTAIN THINGS AND HOW TO HANDLE CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

YOU ALL ARE GIVEN THAT SAME ABILITY IN OUR ORDINANCES.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S BEEN DONE THOUGH.

WHEN YOU WHEN YOU START LOOKING AT HEARINGS, THE CHAIR OR POTENTIALLY THE VICE CHAIR WHO WOULD SERVE IN THE CHAIR'S PLACE AND HIS ABSENCE TO ADMINISTER OATH, COMPEL ATTENDANCE, HAS THE SAME SUBPOENA POWER AS A MUNICIPAL COURT.

THE BOARD RENDERS A DECISION WITHIN A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME AFTER THE HEARING.

ONE THING TO KEEP IN MIND, TOO, AT A HEARING IS A PERSON MAY REPRESENT THEMSELVES OR THEY CAN BE REPRESENTED BY AN ATTORNEY.

AGAIN, THIS QUASI JUDICIAL BOARD YOU'RE HEARINGS LOOK LIKE LOOK LIKE A LITTLE MINI TRIALS AS THE WAY THEY'RE SET UP.

THIS WILL MAKE SENSE WITH THE NEXT SLIDE.

WELL, HOLD ON TO THAT THOUGHT.

SO IT'LL MAKE IT'LL MAKE SENSE ONCE WE GET TO THE ANATOMY OF THE HEARING.

[00:30:03]

AGAIN, IT'S A QUASI QUASI JUDICIAL BODY.

THIS IS MORE GROUNDWORK.

JUST THINGS TO KEEP IN MIND BEFORE WE LOOK AT WHAT AN ANATOMY OF A HEARING LOOKS LIKE, THE ZBA.

AGAIN, YOU'RE YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE FACTS PRESENTED.

YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE A DETERMINATION BASED ON THE FACTS AND THE CITY ZONING ZONING ORDINANCE.

THIS, AGAIN, IT'S LIKE A MINI TRIAL.

REMEMBER, IT'S GOOD TO KEEP IN MIND THAT YOU'RE CREATING A RECORD.

WHAT HAPPENS IN HERE? YOU'RE CREATING A RECORD.

AND THIS RECORD COULD ACTUALLY BE APPEALED TO A COURT OF LAW.

BUT JUST LIKE THE CHAIRS HAS CERTAIN POWERS, MUCH LIKE A JUDGE WOULD.

THE RECORD IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE RECORD IS WHAT THE STATE COURT WOULD LOOK AT IF THE DECISION OF THE ZBA IS APPEALED.

BECAUSE WE DO HAVE A RECORD BEING CREATED.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THESE NEXT THREE BULLET POINTS, THESE ARE THINGS THAT YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO IF YOU GET NOTICE THAT A CASE IS BEING FILED.

DO NOT GO AND VISIT THE SITE.

RIGHT. DO NOT GO AND TALK TO THE APPLICANT.

DO NOT GO AND TALK TO CITY STAFF ABOUT SPECIFICS.

[INAUDIBLE] CITY STAFF'S GOT TO CONTACT YOU TO LET YOU KNOW A MEETING IS BEING IS OCCURRING RIGHT.

BUT DON'T HAVE A CONVERSATION.

CITY STAFF ABOUT SPECIFICS.

THINK OF YOURSELF AGAIN LIKE A JUDGE WOULD IN A CRIMINAL CASE.

RIGHT? A JUDGE? WHAT HAPPENS? THE RECORD IS WHAT YOU MAKE YOUR DETERMINATION OFF OF.

IN THE RECORD IS WHAT OCCURS AT THE HEARING.

IF YOU START TAKING ACTIONS OR START DOING THINGS IN ORDER TO GATHER EVIDENCE THAT OCCURS OUTSIDE OF THE HEARING, WE'VE GOT A REAL PROBLEM.

YOU'VE GOT A REAL PROBLEM BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE AT THAT POINT, WE'RE NOT HAVING A REAL DUE PROCESS SYSTEM PER THE OTHER PEOPLE PARTIES TO THE HEARING DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE BASING YOUR DECISION OFF AND HAVE A CHANCE TO RESPOND AND SO VIOLATES THE WHOLE DUE PROCESS PART.

SO THOSE THREE THINGS ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

THINK OF YOURSELF AS A JUDGE.

STAY IMPARTIAL.

LET THE RECORD BE THE PLACE.

WHAT HAPPENS HERE? LET THAT BE THE ONLY PLACE THAT YOU GET YOUR FACTS ON THE CASE FROM.

I'VE ALREADY SAID THIS. ZBA HEARINGS FOLLOW A PATTERN.

IT LOOKS MUCH LIKE A TRIAL.

THERE AREN'T RULES OF EVIDENCE, THOUGH.

THANK GOD YOU CAN HAVE A ATTORNEYS.

THAT'S NEVER FUN. THERE'S NO RULES OF EVIDENCE, SO IT'S A LITTLE MORE ENJOYABLE.

OH, IT'S PROBABLY A BULLET POINT THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BACK ON THE TYPES OF CASES.

I THINK I SAID THIS EARLIER.

ZONING ADMINISTRATOR DECISION.

THERE'S NO BURDEN OF PROOF.

SO HERE'S THE ANATOMY OF A HEARING.

SO KEEPING THE LAST THREE SLIDES IN MIND.

LET'S LOOK AT WHAT YOU ACTUALLY THE HEARING ITSELF.

THE FIRST PART IS DETERMINING WHETHER THE ZBA HAS STANDING.

THAT'S WHAT YOU WILL HAVE AN ATTORNEY THAT SITS UP THERE WITH YOU AND THEY'LL HELP YOU THROUGH THIS PROCESS.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE THROWN TO THE WOLVES ON THIS.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOUR ATTORNEY IS GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S DONE CORRECTLY IS TO MAKE SURE THE ZBA HAS STANDING, STANDING SINCE HE HAS JURISDICTION, HAS THE AUTHORITY TO HEAR THESE THESE FOUR DIFFERENT TYPES OF CASES AND MAKE SURE THEY FIT WITHIN ALL THE CONFINES, YOU KNOW, THE CITY MEET ALL THE REQUIREMENTS UNDER LAW TO PROPERLY HEAR THE CASE.

WAS NOTICE ISSUED PROPERLY? WAS THE APPEAL TO THIS BOARD TIMELY FILED? I THINK ZONING ADMINISTRATOR DECISIONS HE HAD TEN DAYS WHEN.

TONY, YOU ARE THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR, CORRECT? YEAH. SO TONY ISSUED THESE DECISIONS.

THEY GOT TEN DAYS TO APPEAL.

THEY WAIT TILL 11 DAYS.

TOO BAD, TIME'S EXPIRED.

THEY DON'T GET TO SHOW UP IN FRONT OF Y'ALL.

HIS DECISION IS FINAL.

BUT IF THEY MAKE WITHIN TEN DAYS, THAT'S WHEN, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO GO THROUGH IN THAT FIRST BULLET POINT.

WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE SURE THE ZBA HAS STANDING.

OPENING STATEMENTS. AGAIN, IT'S GOING TO LOOK LIKE A LOT LIKE TRIAL.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE OPENING STATEMENTS.

THIS ISN'T REQUIRED, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, YOUR OPENING STATEMENTS, YOUR APPLICANT WILL GO FIRST BECAUSE IN SOME OF THE CASES THE APPLICANT BEARS THE BURDEN OF PROOF.

AND SO IT WOULD BE NATURAL FOR THE APPLICANT OR THE PERSON THAT BEARS THE BURDEN OF PROOF TO GO FIRST.

YOU'LL HAVE THE PRESENTATION OF EVIDENCE.

I DIDN'T KNOW OF A BETTER WAY TO PHRASE THAT.

BUT ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE IS YOU'RE GOING TO ALLOW EACH SIDE TO MAKE THEIR CASE, TO SPEAK THEIR PIECE.

AND SO THEY'RE GOING TO SAY, I'M GOING TO CALL THIS WITNESS, CHAIR SWEARS THEM IN, ADMINISTERS AN OATH, AND THEN THEY SPEAK.

HERE'S WHAT MY PROPERTY LOOKS LIKE.

HERE'S WHY I NEED THAT SETBACK REQUIREMENT TO BE FOUR FEET INSTEAD OF FIVE.

LET ME TELL YOU WHAT I GOT HERE.

AND I DIDN'T DO IT. YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T MAKE THIS SITUATION FOR MYSELF.

LET ME LET ME TELL YOU. AND THEY START MAKING AND THEN THE CITY MAY GET UP.

YOU KNOW, THEY BRING ALL THE WITNESSES THEY WANT.

THEY SIT DOWN.

THE CITY SAYS, OKAY, THANK YOU.

CITY BRINGS ALL THE WITNESSES THEY WANT, YOU KNOW, AND THEN SOMETIMES YOU'LL LET THEM GO AGAIN.

THAT'S TYPICALLY THE WAY IT WORKS.

EACH SIDE THE CHANCE TO BRING REBUTTAL WITNESSES.

BUT EACH SIDE, THAT'S WHAT I TALK ABOUT, PRESENTATION OF EVIDENCE.

THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE THEIR CASE IN CHIEF.

[00:35:01]

EACH SIDE WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO DIRECT AND CROSS EXAMINE WITNESSES.

JUST LIKE IN A TRIAL, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE CLOSING STATEMENTS.

GENERALLY, THE PERSON THAT BEARS THE BURDEN OF PROOF WILL GO LAST.

IT'S NOT TECHNICALLY REQUIRED.

AND INTERESTINGLY, BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL THESE NOTICE REQUIREMENTS, YOU'LL HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING AT THE END BECAUSE WE'LL GIVE THOSE NOTICE REQUIREMENTS.

AGAIN, I PROBABLY SHOULD GO BACK AND STATE THAT WHEN I TALK ABOUT DIRECT AND CROSS-EXAMINED WITNESSES, THE PUBLIC DOESN'T GET TO DO THAT.

THAT'S GOING TO BE THE PARTIES THEMSELVES TO THE ACTUAL HEARING.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE SOMEBODY IN THE BACK TO UP FOR THE PUBLIC HEARING ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU KNOW, GRILL TONY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THAT'S THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT.

BUT WHAT THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO IS THEY GET GENERALLY THREE, 5 MINUTES TO SPEAK THEIR PIECE ABOUT WHY THEY THINK WHAT THEY THINK AND HOW THEY THINK YOU SHOULD RULE.

BUT YOU'LL HAVE YOUR PUBLIC HEARING AND EVERYONE TO SPEAK.

AND OF COURSE, THE ZBA MAY ASK QUESTIONS AT ANY TIME.

OF COURSE, SOMETIMES ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS.

IF THERE'S WITNESSES ON THE STAND AND YOU WANT TO ASK CERTAIN PEOPLE QUESTIONS, THAT'S GREAT.

PROBABLY NOT GREAT TO DO IT DURING OPENING STATEMENTS.

THAT WOULD BE A LITTLE UNUSUAL.

BUT ANY QUESTION ON DETERMINING THE ZBA HAS STANDING, WILL THAT BE DETERMINED BEFORE THE CASE IS SENT TO BEFORE THE HEARING? IT WILL BE, BUT WE'LL STILL BEGIN.

WE'RE CREATING A RECORD RIGHT HERE.

AND SO TO STILL BE STAYED ON THE RECORD, IT'S REALLY SIMPLE.

YOU MAY. IT COULD JUST BE A FEW SENTENCES THAT YOU SAY, MUCH LIKE WHEN YOU OPENED IT TODAY, YOU'RE KIND OF READING THE AGENDA AND SAYING, HERE'S WHAT WE GOT GOING ON.

WE'LL SIMPLY STATE THIS IS THERE MAY BE A CASE NUMBER ASSIGNED.

THIS IS THIS IS CASE NUMBER, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

MR. SMITH IS THE APPLICANT.

HE FILED THIS APPEAL ON JANUARY 2ND, 2023.

NOTICE WAS PUBLISHED IN THE NEWSPAPER ON JANUARY 15, 2023.

IT LOOKS LIKE NOTIFICATIONS WERE SENT HERE REGARDING NEIGHBORING PROPERTY OWNERS.

WE HAVE SET THIS HEARING TODAY, WHICH IS WITHIN SIX DAYS.

IT'S GOING TO BE KIND OF A PRE FUNK ATORY REMARKS THAT THAT'S KIND OF WHAT SETS THE STAGE.

THOSE GENERALLY WILL BE PREPARED.

I WON'T SAY WE'RE PREPARED, BUT YOUR ATTORNEY IS GOING TO WALK THROUGH THAT WITH YOU AND PROBABLY HELP SET THE STAGE ON THAT.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE REQUIRED TO COME UP WITH THAT ON YOUR OWN.

OKAY. THANK YOU. YEP.

GREAT QUESTION. YEP.

NO, NOT ALWAYS.

SO THERE ARE CERTAIN TYPES OF CASES.

AND AGAIN, SINCE WE HAVE FOUR DIFFERENT TYPES OF CASES, THIS IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, BUT IT IS POSSIBLE.

AND IT DOES HAPPEN FROM TIME TO TIME THAT DEPENDING ON THE MATTER IN FRONT OF YOU, PARTICULARLY MAYBE APPEAL OF THE ZONING DECISION OF THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR, WHERE YOU'LL NOT HAVE SOMEBODY YOU DON'T HAVE ONE OF THE CITY ATTORNEYS REPRESENT, YOU WON'T BE MYSELF, WON'T BE ALAN TAYLOR, THE CITY ATTORNEY.

THAT'S BECAUSE WE MAY BE CONFLICTED OUT.

TECHNICALLY, THE CITY REMEMBER THE PEOPLE WHO CAN APPEAL THE ZBA FROM THE ZBA IS THE CITY.

WE COULD APPEAL YOUR DECISION.

YOU DON'T ACTUALLY SEE THAT.

BUT THERE ARE CASES THAT I KNOW OF WHERE THE ZBA MAKES A DETERMINATION.

AND IT'S THE CITY COUNCIL THAT APPEALS TO DISTRICT COURT BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE THE CITY'S AGGRIEVED BY THE DECISION THAT WAS REACHED BY THE ZBA.

AND SO IN THOSE SITUATIONS, ATTORNEYS HAVE ETHICAL RULES.

THEY CAN'T ESSENTIALLY REPRESENT TWO SIDES OF A MATTER.

I'M SPEAKING VERY GENERALLY.

AND SO IF THE CITY ATTORNEYS REALLY REPRESENTED CITY STAFF ON THIS AND WE DON'T FEEL LIKE WE CAN BE IMPARTIAL AND REPRESENT THE ZBA, SOMETIMES YOU'LL HAVE A THIRD PARTY ATTORNEY COME IN AND GIVE ADVICE TO THE ZBA.

AND THAT'S VERY THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING HAPPENED.

Y'ALL DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG.

WHAT THAT IS, IF WE MAKE THAT CALL, ALAN OR MYSELF, ESSENTIALLY LOOKING AT AND SAY, ETHICALLY, IT'S PROBABLY CLEANEST IF WE HAVE ANOTHER ATTORNEY THAT HAS NO DOG AND THE REST OF THE CITY FIGHT, GIVE, GIVE THE ZBA ADVICE ON THIS.

SO YOU SAID ZBA APPEALS.

GO TO THE DISTRICT COURT.

YES. TARRANT COUNTY OR JOHNSON COUNTY? IT PROBABLY DEPENDS WHERE THE PROPERTY IS LOCATED.

OKAY, FAIR ENOUGH.

THANK YOU.

OK. SO AGAIN, WE'RE STILL TALKING MEETING PROCEDURES HERE.

SPEAKING OF ATTORNEY, THAT'S THE NEXT BULLET POINT.

THE ZBA MAY MEET WITH ITS ATTORNEY IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.

AND MY GUESS, PRACTICALLY SPEAKING, IS THAT IF YOU DID HAVE A HEARING, ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT YOU PROBABLY DO IS RECESS AN EXECUTIVE SESSION AND RECEIVE A BRIEFING FROM THE ATTORNEY, NOT ABOUT THE MATTER.

THAT'S FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION.

BUT JUST GENERALLY SPEAKING, KIND OF GIVEN THIS OVERVIEW ON TRAINING, AGAIN, IN EXECUTIVE TO GO OVER WHAT YOUR LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY IS THE RIGHTS ARE.

AND JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR.

[00:40:01]

EXECUTIVE SESSION MEANS A PUBLIC MEETING WHERE THE PUBLIC DOESN'T GET TO ATTEND.

YOU STILL HAVE TO BE POSTED AND YOU STILL HAVE TO GIVE 72 HOURS NOTICE AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT'S REQUIRED UNDER THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.

BUT YOU MEET IN PRIVATE, UNDER UNDER THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, THERE'S VERY FEW TIMES THAT YOU CAN GO BACK AND MEET IN PRIVATE, BUT ADVICE FROM THE ATTORNEY IS ONE OF THEM.

OH, LOOK, THAT'S THE SECOND BULLET POINT.

ZBA MAY HAVE AN ATTORNEY THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY.

AGAIN, THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING'S WRONG OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT CAN BE COMMON.

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

IT'S GOING TO DEPEND MORE ON THE TYPE OF CASE THAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU.

THE ZBA MUST REDUCE ITS DECISION TO WRITING.

THERE'S GENERALLY A FEW PARAGRAPH OR TWO WHEN THE ZBA MAKES A DECISION.

THERE'S KIND OF THIS FINDINGS OF FACT AGAIN, QUASI JUDICIAL.

IT'S GOING TO LOOK KIND OF LIKE A A COURT DECISION.

THE ATTORNEY WILL HELP TAKE CARE OF THAT FOR YOU.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU'LL DRAFT YOURSELVES.

AGAIN, WE HAVE A GREAT MAJORITY HERE.

STATE LAW REQUIRES 75% FOR MOST THINGS.

OUR ORDINANCE REQUIRES ANY TIME THE ZBA DOES ANYTHING FOR 75% ON ALL THINGS, ALL CASES IN FRONT OF THE ZBA FOUR OUT OF FIVE VOTES.

AND THEN STARTING APRIL 1ST, SEVEN OUT TO NINE VOTES FOR THE ZBA TO GRANT A LEAVE.

SO RELIEF. SO IT'S A VERY HIGH THRESHOLD.

AND AGAIN, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE RECORD AGAIN, THAT RECORD OF THE ZBA HEARING MUST BE PRESERVED BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IF THERE IS AN APPEAL FROM THE ZBA DECISION, THAT'S WHAT'S TAKEN TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

THAT. WHAT HAPPENS IF THE DBA DOESN'T HAVE A QUORUM WITHIN THE 60 DAYS REQUIRED TO HEAR THE.

HOW. AND WE HAVE A DO THAT.

FRANKLY, I'VE TAUGHT MY HEAD.

I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T THINK IT NECESSARILY MEANS ONE THING OR THE OTHER.

OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE IN VIOLATION OF CHAPTER 211 AT THAT POINT, BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN A DEFAULT ENTRY IS MADE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I THINK AT THAT POINT, MOST LIKELY, THE APPLICANT COULD PROBABLY FILE FOR RELIEF TO THE DISTRICT COURT AND SAY, MAKE THE ZBA SHOW UP, MAKE THE CITY HEAR THIS MATTER.

THEY'RE VIOLATING THEIR OWN ORDINANCES.

THEY'RE VIOLATING STATE LAW.

WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE THAT PROBLEM. THAT'S WHY I THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR SHOWING UP.

OK APPEALS FROM THE ZBA AND THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.

WE'RE ROUNDING THE BEND HERE.

I THINK THESE ARE THE LAST TWO THINGS IN MY AGENDA.

AGAIN, WE'VE KIND OF TALKED ABOUT THIS ALREADY.

ZBA DECISION MAY BE APPEALED TO A COURT OF RECORD.

GENERALLY, THAT'S GOING TO BE DISTRICT COURT.

CITY ANY PERSON AGGRIEVED BY DECISION OR EVEN A TAXPAYER CAN APPEAL THE DECISION ON CERTAIN CASES IF THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE AN APPEAL.

THERE'S A HARD DEADLINE OF TEN DAYS.

JUST KIND OF LIKE TONY'S THE APPEAL FROM THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR.

I THINK IT'S TEN DAYS, THE APPEAL FOR TEN DAYS ON Y'ALLS DECISION.

YOU'VE GOT TO FOLLOW IT UP. HILL VERY, VERY QUICKLY.

THEY PASSED THAT DEADLINE.

THE APPELLATE CHANCE HAS GONE AWAY.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.

SO AS JUST LIKE RIGHT NOW, ZBA MEETINGS ARE OPEN TO PUBLIC.

THIS IS A BOARD THAT IS SUBJECT TO OPEN MEETINGS.

I THINK YOU'LL TAKE OPEN MEETINGS AT TRAINING.

IT'S REQUIRED FOR EVERYBODY.

SO YOU GET ALL THE I DON'T WANT TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE HERE.

BUT AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE QUASI JUDICIAL, IT'S OPEN.

IT DOESN'T CHANGE. MEETINGS ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC UNLESS YOU CAN GET AN EXECUTIVE SESSION TO RECEIVE ADVICE FROM YOUR ATTORNEY.

CBA HAS TO MEET AT DULY CALLED MEETINGS POSTED 72 HOURS IN ADVANCE, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CITY COUNCIL OR BORDER COMMISSION OF THE CITY.

AND AGAIN, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS FROM A RECORD PERSPECTIVE, BUT SINCE THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, AGAIN, YOU CANNOT MEET OR DELIBERATE OUTSIDE THE PUBLIC MEETING.

NOT ONLY IS THAT A DUE PROCESS PROBLEM AND YOU WANT TO GET ALL YOUR EVIDENCE FROM THE RECORD, IT'S ACTUALLY A MEETING, A VIOLATION OF THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT, WHICH I'M SURE YOU ALL REMEMBER HAS POTENTIAL CRIMINAL PENALTIES.

AND I'VE GOT THE OTHER BULLET POINTS THERE TELEPHONE, TEXT, EMAILS OR SOCIAL MEDIA.

I MEAN, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MEET AT THE WATER BURGER TOGETHER IN ORDER TO VIOLATE IT.

AND IF YOU CALL EACH OTHER ON THE PHONE, IF THERE'S TEXTS, SOCIAL MEDIA, THERE'S A FAMOUS CASE I CAN'T REMEMBER FAMOUS, BUT A CASE ABOUT. PEOPLE POSTING ON SOCIAL MEDIA, MEMBERS OF A BOARD, AND IT JUST KIND OF GOING IN ORDER AND PEOPLE KEEP POSTING.

AND IF YOU'VE GOT FOUR OR FIVE MEMBERS POSTING ON SOMETHING, AT SOME POINT YOU'VE HAD A DELIBERATION AND THEY'VE MET ABOUT AN ITEM WITHOUT IT BEING PROPERLY CALLED SO EASY TO DO WHEN YOU DON'T THINK ABOUT IT.

SO JUST REMEMBER, DON'T MEET OR DELIBERATE OUTSIDE OF A DULY CALLED MEETING.

[00:45:07]

ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? THE ONLY COMMENT I HAVE WOULD BE OPEN TO DISCUSSION.

TO REITERATE, AN EXECUTIVE SESSION CAN BE CALLED AT ANY TIME.

SO LET'S. THAT'S A GOOD POINT.

THE BEGINNING, YOU GET HALFWAY THROUGH IT AND YOU'RE HEARING THIS AND YOU'RE LIKE, WAIT A MINUTE, I CAN'T REMEMBER.

CAN I ASK THIS QUESTION? OR IS THIS KIND OF WITHIN THE REALM OR WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? I'M KIND OF STUCK.

YOU CAN ASK THE CHAIR.

MR. CHAIR, SIR, RESPECTFULLY, I WOULD REQUEST ADVICE TO THE ATTORNEY THAT WOULD NEED TO BE DONE.

AN EXECUTIVE SESSION.

AND THEN YOU WOULD JUST GO.

AND EXECUTIVE SESSION DOES REQUIRE A MOTION, A SECOND AND THEN A VOTE.

AND THEN YOU GO INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION AND THEN YOU CAN SAY, OKAY, MR. ATTORNEY, I GOT A LITTLE CONFUSED BECAUSE IT CAN GET CONFUSING.

AND IF YOU GET TO THAT POINT, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH SAYING I NEED TO GO TO THE EXECUTIVE SESSION TO GET ADVICE FROM THE ATTORNEY.

THANK YOU. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

AND I WILL SAY Y'ALL DON'T MEET VERY OFTEN.

AND IN FACT, I CAN'T THINK THE LAST TIME THE ZBA MET 19.

WHAT'S THAT? 2019.

2019. YEAH.

I MEAN, SO BUT WHAT I WOULD ALSO EMPHASIZE IS I KNOW Y'ALL DON'T DO THIS A LOT, BUT DON'T WORRY.

YOU HAVE LIKE MONICA SETTING UP THE RIGHT NOW, IF THERE IS A HEARING, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN ATTORNEY HERE TO ADVISE YOU TO TO TALK WITH YOU, TO GUIDE YOU THROUGH THIS PROCESS. YOU'RE NOT EXPECTED TO KNOW EVERYTHING.

YOU'RE NOT EXPECTED TO TO DO EVERYTHING.

YOUR ATTORNEY, CITY STAFF WILL BE THERE TO ASSIST YOU EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

YOU KNOW, JUST I WOULD SAY IF YOU COME AWAY WITH ANYTHING, JUST REMEMBER, DON'T TRY TO INVESTIGATE THE FACTS BY YOURSELF.

LET THIS RECORD SPEAK FOR ITSELF.

AND OF COURSE, DON'T DON'T DON'T INVESTIGATE THE FACTS YOURSELF AND DON'T TALK AMONGST YOURSELVES WITHOUT AN A DULY BEING AT A DULY CALLED MEETING.

CAN YOU TAKE NOTES OR DOES THAT BECOME YOU CAN TAKE NOTES.

AND I WOULD SAY, DEPENDING ON THE PROCEEDING, YOU KNOW, YOU MAY WANT TO THAT MAY DIFFER FROM ATTORNEY TO ATTORNEY.

YOU KNOW, AND I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, THE ATTORNEY THERE WANTS TO MAKE SURE YOU'RE AS COMFORTABLE WITH THE PROCESS AS POSSIBLE.

AND SO NEVER, NEVER SHY AWAY FROM ASKING A QUESTION.

I THINK IF IT'S NOT ME STANDING UP THERE, I WOULD ASK THE ATTORNEY AGAIN, BECAUSE THEY MAY HAVE SOME PREFERENCE OR SOME SCAR TISSUE FROM SOME EVENT THAT I HAVEN'T HAD, YOU KNOW, BUT I THINK THAT'S A VERY APPROPRIATE QUESTION FOR WHOEVER HAS TO BE SITTING UP THERE WITH YOU ALL.

WE'VE ACTUALLY HAD I KNOW, COUNCIL, WE HAVE HAD PUBLIC INFORMATION ACT REQUESTS FOR NOTES THAT COUNCIL HAS TAKEN DURING FOR CERTAIN COUNCIL MEMBERS, THE NOTES THEY'VE TAKEN DURING COUNCIL MEETINGS, SO UNFORTUNATELY, I TRIED TO PUT PAGE NUMBERS ON HERE AND IT DIDN'T WORK, I GUESS BECAUSE..

ASK YOUR QUESTION AGAIN, SIR.

I'LL CONSIDER SEPARATELY, I THINK THE P&Z ESPECIALLY.

I WOULD GIVE THAT SAME THAT SAME ADVICE COUNCIL.

GENERALLY SPEAKING, ANY TIME YOU HAVE A HEARING WHERE YOU'RE CREATING A RECORD, I WOULD SAY THAT'S BEST PRACTICE.

I THINK IT WOULD BE FOR COUNCIL.

THERE MAY BE EXCEPTIONS TO THAT SITUATION, ESPECIALLY WITH TALKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO PETITION THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS. AND SO YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY ELECTED OFFICIALS NEVER VISIT WITH THAT PERSON, THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND SO WE MAY HAVE TO IT MAY BE A MORE FACT SPECIFIC QUESTION WHEN ANSWERING IT FOR COUNCIL.

BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, I WOULD SAY THOSE ARE ALWAYS GOOD RULES TO FOLLOW BY.

[00:50:03]

HERE'S NOT THE OPEN MEETING, PUBLIC MEETING, IT'S THE SAME THING.

I USE THOSE TERMS INTERCHANGEABLE WHEN I SAY REALLY THE BETTER SESSION IS OPEN SESSION AND EXECUTIVE SESSION. THERE'S STILL PUBLIC MEETINGS.

THERE'S STILL OPEN MEETINGS JUST LIKE THIS.

THIS RIGHT HERE IS AN OPEN SESSION.

IF WE WERE TO RECESS AND DO EXECUTIVE SESSION, WE WOULD RECESS UNDER EXECUTIVE SESSION.

IF IT'S SO LONG AS IT'S ON THE AGENDA AND WE'D GO BACK IN.

THE PUBLIC'S NO LONGER ALLOWED TO GO BACK DURING THAT MEETING.

STILL HAS TO BE POSTED 72 HOURS, BUT THE PUBLIC DOES NOT ATTEND ABLE TO ATTEND ON THOSE VERY SPECIFIC ITEMS THAT THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT ALLOWS US TO TALK ABOUT OUTSIDE THE PURVIEW OF THE PUBLIC.

ABSOLUTELY.

SO THERE WOULD BE BASICALLY JUST MAKE A MOTION.

YOU HAVE A SECOND.

EVERYONE SAYS, LET'S GO BACK AND AMANDA AND MONICA WILL MAKE SURE THAT THE SECTION GETS READ.

YOU'LL SAY YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ THE SECTION.

AMANDA, MONICA DID A REAL GOOD JOB DURING COUNCIL MEETINGS, BUT BASICALLY THE MOTION SHOULD BE TO GO BACK THERE AS LONG AS ATTORNEY ADVICE.

SOMEONE MENTIONED YOU CAN CITE THE SPECIFIC STATUTE WHICH WILL BE PRINTED AT THE BOTTOM OF THE AGENDA IF WE EVER HAVE A HEARING.

BUT AS LONG AS YOU STATE WHY YOU'RE GOING BACK THERE AND IT'S AN AUTHORIZED PURPOSE, TAKE A MOTION VOTE, THEN YOU'RE AUTHORIZED TO GO BACK THERE.

YOU WILL ADJOURN. YOU'LL USUALLY SAY WE'RE GOING TO ADJOURN AN EXECUTIVE SESSION AT 656.

WE'D GO BACK THERE, TAKE HOWEVER LONG WE NEED, COME BACK OUT AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO ADJOURN BACK INTO GENERAL SESSION AT 6:57.

SOMETHING ALONG THAT LINES YOU JUST A SIMPLE MOTION AND ANYBODY CAN MAKE IT.

IF YOU EVER LOOK. THAT'S GOOD TO KNOW.

IF YOU EVER LOOK AT A P AND Z AGENDA OR A COUNCIL AGENDA, THE VERY BOTTOM OF IT, THERE'S A BUNCH OF BOILERPLATE AND IT HAS ALL THESE DIFFERENT EXCEPTIONS LISTED.

P AND C DOESN'T HAVE NEAR AS MANY.

BUT WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE GOING THROUGH THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT SAYING WE MAY ADJOURN INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION ALL FOR THESE PURPOSES ON ANY POSTED ITEM.

AND THE FIRST ONE THAT'S ALWAYS LISTED IS ADVICE FROM LEGAL COUNSEL.

YES, SIR. BUT I CAN TELL YOU, IF WE EVER HAVE A HEARING, IT WILL BE POSTED.

THE BOILERPLATE WILL GO ON THERE.

TO BE A PARTY TO THOSE TO EXECUTIVE SESSION, YOU STILL HAVE TO POST NOTICE TO THE PUBLIC 72 HOURS THAT YOU'RE IN FACT MAY OR YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT. CLEAR AS MUD, EVERYONE.

WELL, HERE'S HERE'S. HERE'S A GOOD THING.

I APPRECIATE YOUR PATIENCE.

I KNOW MAYBE I'VE SPOKEN TOO LONG.

IF YOU EVER, EVER HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR ANYTHING, YOU DON'T HAVE TO EITHER WAIT FOR A MEETING OR ANYTHING ELSE OR A HEARING.

YOU CAN CALL US AT ANY TIME.

WE'D BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS.

I WOULD SAY IF THERE IS A HEARING SET SPECIFICALLY, AGAIN, I WOULDN'T CALL AND WANT TO TALK TO AN ATTORNEY ABOUT THE SPECIFIC CASE OR SOME SPECIFIC ISSUE.

BUT IF YOU JUST HAVE A LEGAL QUESTION AT ANY TIME, ALWAYS FEEL FREE TO CONTACT.

THAT'S WHAT AL AND I ARE HERE FOR.

AND, YOU KNOW, I'M ALWAYS MORE THAN HAPPY TO DO IT.

IT WILL HAPPEN MORE THAN YOU THINK.

AND BECAUSE AGAIN, A LOT OF A LOT OF THESE A LOT OF THE PEOPLE SOMETIMES THAT COME IN FRONT OF THE ZBA ARE USED TO THE PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT WORLD.

AND IT'S VERY COMMON FOR CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS, FOR EXAMPLE, TO BE CONTACTED BY CERTAIN DEVELOPERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND THAT'S THEY MAY HAVE A, IT MAY NOT BE NEFARIOUS, IT JUST MAY BE STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE.

SAY I'VE GOT A HEARING IN FRONT OF A CITY BOARD, I'M GOING TO GO MEET WITH THE MEMBERS.

AND GENERALLY SPEAKING, THAT'S OK.

I THINK WHAT I WOULD JUST SAY IS, HEY, LISTEN, I APPRECIATE YOU REACHING OUT.

UNFORTUNATELY, I CAN'T VISIT WITH YOU ABOUT THE SPECIFICS.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A HEARING AND I HAVE TO LISTEN TO THE RECORD THAT'S CREATED FOR THAT HEARING.

I MEAN, IF YOU'RE IF YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, AND YOU WANT TO TELL SOMEBODY, I THINK THAT'S ALWAYS GOOD PRACTICE.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE IF YOU'RE CONCERNED THAT IT MAY GET ALLEGED THAT SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT JUST JUST GIVE ME A CALL AND WE CAN WALK THROUGH THAT.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS?

[00:55:02]

HMM. ALL RIGHT.

WELL, HOPEFULLY Y'ALL CAN SLEEP TONIGHT.

I KNOW THE ADRENALINE SPIKING.

THANK Y'ALL SERIOUSLY. THANK YOU, SIR.

THANK YOU. THEY'RE ALL HYPED UP LIKE KIDS ON SUGAR.

ITEM FOUR A WAS FOR DISCUSSION ONLY, SO THERE'S NO ACTION REQUIRED.

THE NEXT ITEM NUMBER FIVE ZBA REQUESTS FOR FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS AND REPORTS.

DOES THE BOARD HAVE ANY OTHER REQUESTS FOR FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS OR REPORTS FROM ANY BOARD MEMBERS? NO, NO.

THAT BEING SAID, ITEM NUMBER SIX, THERE BEING NO FURTHER BUSINESS FOR THIS COMMITTEE.

CAN I GET A MOTION IN A SECOND TO ADJOURN? MOTION TO ADJOURN. SECOND.

SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR.

AYE.

STATE THE TIME WE ARE ADJOURNED AT 7:01.

THANK YOU ALL.

* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.